You all know Jay and Duke from "Cell Phone Blues" well... They are at it AGAIN!
(disclaimer: your Web Philosopher is not responsible, nor necessarily agrees with the content nor opinions of either or Jay Nor Duke. But sometimes Duke sounds a little off the mark to me.)
Jay sent an email to his friend Duke asking him to sign a petition to send to Congress asking them not to give social security money to illegal immigrants to help control government spending.
This request from Jay really FIRED Duke up.!
Read their heated controversy which appears below: (unedited by your Web Philosopher)
Socialism, patriotism, immigration, global cooling/warming, taxes, Al Gore, name calling, outrageous statements, grand questions, good cows, bad cows.
You name it. They discuss it...
1. From: Duke to Jay:
I'm all about giving as many rights to immigrants as citizens. america wants to globalize the world but refusing to itself become globalized is a double standard i will not support nor advocate. citizenship is just other way to say racist in this context.
keep sending me political rhetoric, i'll throw some gasoline on it before i pass it back. feel free to fire away in defense of this garbage, i'll be glad to read them.
2. Jay to Duke:
This isn't rhetoric. Maybe you don't understand what the petition is asking. We're asking the president to not just give away our tax dollars in social security benefits to people here who have never put a cent in themselves and asking congress to require them to become US citizens before they are to be eligible for anything.
3. Duke to Jay:
I think this is all putting the cart before the horse. getting rid of taxes seems more important than adjusting the system to accommodate or exclude this or that group for your agenda.
its all moot to me, government can do anything they want with my tax dollars. i don't really want money to begin with (not to mention, its actually their tax dollars once its been paid, not ours). i work hard and take care of myself and my family, today i'm forced to do it with dollars. i'd just as soon do it with clam shells or oak leaves or some microchip planted in my arm linked to some database tracking some fictitious integer which is supposed to represent something about my worth. lol. only i can determine that. some alien is just as entitled to the safety and well-being that the U.S. espouses as i am. it was absolute chance that i was born here, while he/she/they were born where ever it was they are running from.
if we milk this cow till it dies then perhaps we can build a new, better cow later. have fun joe. this isnt all that bad of a world so long as you got your priorities in order.
4. Jay to Duke:
Whatever Duke, can't we agree on anything? Thats the point, YOUR tax dollars and that's the point of protesting--its taxation without representation. No it's not govt's, it's the people's money to pay for things beneficial to America--infrastructure, defense, etc--and we are the most generous nation in the world, we give money to other countries to help fight poverty and disease. If you feel that way, I'll give you my address and just send me your money and I'll be more than happy to redistribute it to illegal aliens who want something for nothing-your money you "really don't want" but "worked hard" for.
As for "milking the cow until it dies" well yeah, the programs Obama/his congress/those who pull their strings are trying to pass, you look at the numbers, it's impossible to pay for--even putting more taxes on *private industry and the rich (which is the plan) wont pay for it, businesses are going to keep laying people off, commercial real estate market is going to collapse, unemployment will keep going up, gas will exceed $5-6--math was never my strong suit but a total economic collapse is a mathematical certainty and people are going to revolt because they will snap.
*Now that the truth about the global warming myth has been exposed with the EPA report, (the earth is actually cooling) the govt still has enough power to put their choke hold on private energy companies, and with this 'cap and trade' which I'm sure you've heard of, were going to be taxed more.
What we will have is a govt controlled, socialist state, and it wont be the people's interest, it wont be pretty, it wont be utopia, it will totalitarian. Taxes are at the very heart of the matter, you just dont seem to comprehend this. What better cow than a govt of, by, and for the people?
5. Duke to Jay:
No we can't.
abstractum vs concretum examples:
state / people
value / dollar
evil / bully
i dont care about the cost of things, i care about what it is we are buying. if math isn't your strong suit, please dont make it sophistry. we have an overpopulation problem. resources are limited. my say: let everyone get a little piece of it.
and prey tell, global warming is a myth? the earth is cooling? lol, jay, you are a wellspring of ridiculous statements. vermont and texas still seceding?
6. Jay to Duke:
I am not a sophist, I was making a point that I'm not a professional mathematician but it doesn't take one to see you have to pay for things and programs, the money comes from taxes, unemployment is over 12%, if you tax private companies (the ones who create jobs) they can't afford to hire and/or keep help--we will collapse unless we stop taxing and spending, that's my point.
We don't have an over population problem--you can fit everyone in the world with room to spare in the state of Texas, asserting we have an over population problem is a ridiculous statement, the correct statement as you say is, resources are limited, not the same thing. Yes, global warming is a myth, it's been believed the earth was getting warmer incrementally for years as part of it's natural process and the government uses this as a ploy to put restrictions, taxes, and impose penalties for nonsense like freon. It's all designed to control energy companies as much as possible. They teach this in schools, people buy it, but it cannot be proven and independent climatologists who haven't been paid off or work for left wing colleges know man made global warming is fictitious. I just read about this atmospheric scientist at MIT who says Gore's "facts" are all off AND now our own govt finally admits it.
Texas and Vermont are working on it. You won't be laughing one day if something doesn't change.
7. Duke to Jay:
I heard that in the future, Obama invents aids and travels back in time ala superman 2 style by flying around the earth in his spandex really $^&# fast to #%$^$ back in 1972 he knows that some one will #&$%%#^& for kicks thus starting the aids population control of the minorities in the future! (editor's note WHAT?????)
Actually, you dont have to pay for anything. squares cannot be round, but anything can be free. it takes inventive minds to see how to do these things. i personally espouse rodenberry's star trek philosophy, that once limitations of necessary resources (food/clothes/medicine) are removed the human race will be able to define its own purpose and learn its true powers. until then, its going to be a bunch of greedy cry babys arguing over who has right this form of wealth or another. #$%$ greed. $%^# putting yourself before the next man. i am anti christian and i feel better about it every day. take your money, my money, everyones money and roll around in it and #$*(&% on it for all i care, its not going to make the world any better unless you know how to use it to manipulate others with it, which is a form of injustice, which is why i couldnt ^$*#& care less about problems related to it. wrong + wrong =/= right. i can hunt, fish, kill, hide, climb, run, breath, et cetera, and no government gave me those liberties, i learned them. and i chose to use them for what i judge to be the greater good.
8. Duke to Jay:
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has criticised leaders of the G8 industrial nations for failing to make deeper commitments to combat climate change.
Yea im sure these guys just ignore facts to make statements like this in an effort to establish a totalitarian world government to abuse YOU.Jay, how can you be so dense about man-influenced climate problems?
How can you be so paranoid period?
9. Jay to Duke
Dense? Name calling--Argumentum ad hominem attack against me, pretty low Mr. Duke. Don't get me wrong, I'm ALL FOR recycling, anti-littering, water conservation, energy conservation, etcetera. But (I'm going to put the EPA study aside cuz its new) I strongly believe that the earth goes in cycles, now its slightly, naturally warming, and the govt uses this natural phenomenon and makes up and twists "facts" to tie a noose around private energy companies for more control because one of the things a govt MUST control in a socialist, communist, and totalitarian govt is power and energy production which when they do, they will strictly ration (like the Texas smart GRID experiment, telling you when you have to turn your tv, computer, etc off). So, they regulate these companies, by passing laws claiming the co2 causes global warming and is melting all the ice caps, blah blah, then tax them to death so they cant make money and eventually the govt will take them over. Look into the cap and trade congress just passed, it will hurt us financially, you watch.
And I give a $%^&*&# about the UN and what the SG says why?? There is a huge community of credible and brilliant scientists who will tell you man made global warming as Al Gore and those say, is just not true and is a total farce. Yeah, other scientists say it is true but so did scientists testify in the 60's in front of congress saying smoking doesn't lead to lung cancer knowing it did--its called being paid off.
Paranoid? yeah, when I see the country I love going down in flames, my liberties threatened, and a totalitarian government slowly emerging, yeah, I'm paranoid for my freedoms as the founding fathers were. Is it so difficult to fathom Duke that these people want something called-----absolute power?? Is it so hard to believe they'll manipulate and lie to get it? You're not stupid, look what we were founded upon--states rights, limited fed govt, now the federal govt is a eating machine buying corporation out with our taxes and forcing people out of business and close their doors. Were to a point where weve become the thing we fought against to begin with.
You think a socialist state will be people-centered and equality, it will be govt shifted power. The very definitions: Freedom is defined as exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty. Socialism is defined as social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. Gee, which way are we headed?
You have every right to believe what you will, as do I but donft insult me because of my beliefs-you have a very nasty habit of appeal to violence and ad hominem attacks Duke.
10. Duke to Jay:
I know this has nothing to do with global warming or socialism or any of the other chips on your shoulder, but rather is the position i hold in general. i hope it explains a little bit of me for you. if not, so be it.
The sad truth of my beliefs Jay (pure philosophy to follow):
most people don't care about "grand questions", such as "Is liberty more important than equality?".. you know, the stuff metaphysics and ethics try to answer. most people are happy to live as cattle.
there are a few bad, bad people out there. they are not balanced out by good people. each life is a mutually exclusive experience.
so to re-cap, the types of people in my world view: cattle, bad, and good. being one type does not deny you membership to another type, there are good bad people, bad good people, good bad cattle... any combination there of. depending what you do, when and where you are decides what type of person you are for that given moment.
there are concrete things and there are abstract things. a person is a concrete thing. people is an abstract thing. abstract things are supervenient to concrete things. we cannot know everything about abstract things just by looking at the concrete things.
"a better world" is mutually exclusive, as is its opposite. we cannot fathom absolutes or the infinite. our emotions and desires are often contradictory to some moral virtue or another.. our reasoning must be cold and void of interest for any best interests. the truth is a cold bright light.
we can tell ourselves what the world is, categorize people, and wish till our #$%#$ turns into gold. but the absolute power of which you are afraid is already inside you, and every other free willed conscious entity. it is not to be feared. it is a tool that you must use to your own ends. we are stuck being very selfish.
life is in many circumstances much like a movie, certain parts of the script are very removed from your power to change it. some parts are subject to interpretation. some parts you write yourself. to vest interest in other peoples interest makes you a tyrant, whether you have power over them or not.
but the world moves on. it may have what appear to be cycles, but cycles are like snowflakes, each time round the focal point is unique and just a tad bit different than its prior and successor. nothing ever truly begins. nothing ever ends. everything is tied into an ebb and flow of powers beyond my power of understanding. beliefs in absolutes will be shattered, known or unbeknownst to the believer.
when you believe something you can be wrong.
i do my best to believe in nothing.
i am a skeptic! no i'm not! i do not deny the possibility of skepticism! yes i do!
thats i chew my cud
11. Jay to Duke:
Whatever you say Duke. I bow in respect to your thoughts and beliefs. However I feel bad for you that your philosophical beliefs are just totally out of order, have little or no reason to them, and you constantly resort to ad hominem attacks and appeal to violence. Not to mention you donft think youfre capable of objectivity, and you contradict yourself.
"I am a skeptic! no I'm not! I do not deny the possibility of skepticism! Yes I do!"
This statement makes absolutely no %$**&#^ sense whatsoever. It violates the principle of non-contradiction and deviates from any sound logical thought. Did you subjectively feel this or objectively come to this conclusion after weighing some evidence do you think?
Are you skeptical that you're here? That I exist? Even more than Kant was? At least he knew he himself and his own experiences were real, was not sure about anything outside his mind though..
Very well Mr. Duke, and I do my best to believe in truth. I believe in reality, I believe in that which is. It is built into our nature to yearn to discover to truth, thatfs why we have the gift of logic.. It's ok to be skeptical on things, to remain neutral, to with hold judgment until we have the facts, as my teacher taught me what can be gratuitously asserted may be gratuitously denied, but to the degree that your school of thought has molded your belief system simply denies logic and insults human intelligence in its purest form.